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325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and things like that because it's micro level control, right? When you 3D print, you are | 2:17:55.560 | 2:17:59.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | in charge of where every cell goes. And for some things that, you know, for, for like | 2:17:59.920 | 2:18:02.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | this thing, they had that I think 20 years ago or maybe earlier than that, you could | 2:18:02.960 | 2:18:06.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | do that. | 2:18:06.040 | 2:18:07.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | So yeah, I would like to emphasize the Dali part where you provide a few words and it | 2:18:07.040 | 2:18:11.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | generates a painting. So here you say, I want a frog with these features and then it would | 2:18:11.480 | 2:18:19.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | go direct a complex biological system to construct something like that. | 2:18:19.920 | 2:18:25.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah. The main magic would be, I mean, I think from, from looking at Dali and so on, it looks | 2:18:25.000 | 2:18:30.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | like the first part is kind of solved now where you go from, from the words to the image, | 2:18:30.040 | 2:18:34.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | like that seems more or less solved. The next step is really hard. This is what keeps things | 2:18:34.360 | 2:18:39.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | like CRISPR and genomic editing and so on. That's what limits all the impacts for regenerative | 2:18:39.920 | 2:18:46.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | medicine because going back to, okay, this is the knee joint that I want, or this is | 2:18:46.880 | 2:18:51.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the eye that I want. Now, what genes do I edit to make that happen, right? Going back | 2:18:51.320 | 2:18:56.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | in that direction is really hard. So instead of that, it's going to be, okay, I understand | 2:18:56.000 | 2:18:59.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | how to motivate cells to build particular structures. Can I rewrite the memory of what | 2:18:59.840 | 2:19:03.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | they think they're supposed to be building such that then I can, you know, take my hands | 2:19:03.680 | 2:19:07.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | off the wheel and let them, let them do their thing. | 2:19:07.480 | 2:19:09.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | So some of that is experiment, but some of that may be AI can help too. Just like with | 2:19:09.960 | 2:19:13.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | protein folding, this is exactly the problem that protein folding in the most simple medium | 2:19:13.960 | 2:19:23.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | tried and has solved with alpha fold, which is how does the sequence of letters result | 2:19:23.400 | 2:19:31.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | in this three dimensional shape? And you have to, I guess it didn't solve it because you | 2:19:31.800 | 2:19:37.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | have to, if you say, I want this shape, how do I then have a sequence of letters? Yeah. | 2:19:37.160 | 2:19:43.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | The reverse engineering step is really tricky. | 2:19:43.760 | 2:19:45.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | It is. I think, I think we're, we're, and we're doing some of this now is, is to use | 2:19:45.920 | 2:19:51.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | AI to try and build actionable models of the intelligence of the cellular collectives. | 2:19:51.680 | 2:19:57.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | So try to help us and help us gain models that, that, that, and, and we've had some | 2:19:57.800 | 2:20:02.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | success in this. So we, we did something like this for, for, you know, for repairing birth | 2:20:02.400 | 2:20:08.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | defects of the brain in frog. We've done some of this for normalizing melanoma where you | 2:20:08.480 | 2:20:14.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | can really start to use AI to make models of how would I impact this thing if I wanted | 2:20:14.240 | 2:20:20.140 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to given all the complexities, right. And, and, and given all the, the, the, the controls | 2:20:20.140 | 2:20:25.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that it, that it knows how to do. | 2:20:25.600 | 2:20:27.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | So when you say regenerative medicine, so we talked about creating biological organisms, | 2:20:27.520 | 2:20:34.060 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | but if you regrow a hand, that information is already there, right? The biological system | 2:20:34.060 | 2:20:41.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | has that information. So how does regenerative medicine work today? How do you hope it works? | 2:20:41.440 | 2:20:48.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | What's the hope there? | 2:20:48.080 | 2:20:49.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah. | 2:20:49.080 | 2:20:50.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah. How do you make it happen? | 2:20:50.080 | 2:20:52.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Well today there's a set of popular approaches. So, so one is 3d printing. So the idea is | 2:20:52.480 | 2:20:57.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I'm going to make a scaffold of the thing that I want. I'm going to seed it with cells | 2:20:57.480 | 2:21:00.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and then, and then there it is, right? So kind of direct, and then that works for certain | 2:21:00.600 | 2:21:03.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | things. You can make a bladder that way or an ear, something like that. The other, the | 2:21:03.760 | 2:21:08.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | other ideas is some sort of stem cell transplant. These are the ideas. If we, if we put in stem | 2:21:08.920 | 2:21:14.300 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | cells with appropriate factors, we can get them to generate certain kinds of neurons | 2:21:14.300 | 2:21:17.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | for certain diseases and so on. All of those things are good for relatively simple structures, | 2:21:17.920 | 2:21:24.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | but when you want an eye or a hand or something else, I think in this maybe an unpopular opinion, | 2:21:24.760 | 2:21:30.660 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I think the only hope we have in any reasonable kind of timeframe is to understand how the | 2:21:30.660 | 2:21:36.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | thing was motivated to get made in the first place. So what is it that, that made those | 2:21:36.560 | 2:21:41.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | cells in the, in the beginning, create a particular arm with a particular set of sizes and shapes | 2:21:41.320 | 2:21:48.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and number of fingers and all that. And why is it that a salamander can keep losing theirs | 2:21:48.400 | 2:21:51.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and keep regrowing theirs and a planarian can do the same even more? So to me, uh, kind | 2:21:51.760 | 2:21:57.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of ultimate regenerate medicine was when you can tell the cells to build whatever it is | 2:21:57.640 | 2:22:02.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you need them to build. Right. And so the, so that we can all be like planaria basically, | 2:22:02.840 | 2:22:07.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | do you have to start at the very beginning or can you, um, do a shortcut? Cause we're | 2:22:07.400 | 2:22:13.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | going to hand, you already got the whole organism. Yeah. So here's what we've done, right? So, | 2:22:13.680 | 2:22:19.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | we've, we've more or less solved that in frogs. So frogs, unlike salamanders do not regenerate | 2:22:19.560 | 2:22:24.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | their legs as adults. And so, so, uh, we've shown that with a very, um, uh, kind of simple | 2:22:24.160 | 2:22:31.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | intervention. So what we do is there's two things you need to, uh, you need to have a | 2:22:31.800 | 2:22:36.100 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | signal that tells the cells what to do, and then you need some way of delivering it. And | 2:22:36.100 | 2:22:39.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | so this is work together with, um, with David Kaplan and I should do a, um, a disclosure | 2:22:39.520 | 2:22:44.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | here. We have a company called morphosuticals and spin off where we're trying to, uh, to | 2:22:44.080 | 2:22:48.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | address, uh, uh, regenerate, you know, limb regeneration. So we've solved it in the frog | 2:22:48.200 | 2:22:52.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and we're now in trials and mice. So now we're going to, we're in mammals now. It's, I can't | 2:22:52.320 | 2:22:56.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | say anything about how it's going, but the frog thing is solved. So what you do is, um, | 2:22:56.440 | 2:22:59.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | after you have a little frog, Lou Skywalker with every growing hand. Yeah, basically, | 2:22:59.720 | 2:23:04.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | basically. Yeah. Yeah. So what you do is we did, we did with legs instead of forearms. | 2:23:04.480 | 2:23:07.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And what you do is, um, after amputation, normally they, they don't regenerate. You | 2:23:07.840 | 2:23:11.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | put on a wearable bioreactor. So it's this thing that, um, that goes on and, uh, Dave | 2:23:11.200 | 2:23:15.620 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Kaplan does lab makes these things and inside it's a, it's a very controlled environment. | 2:23:15.620 | 2:23:21.300 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | It is a silk gel that carries, uh, some drugs, for example, ion channel drugs. And what you're | 2:23:21.300 | 2:23:26.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | doing is you're saying to the cells, you should regrow what normally goes here. So, uh, that | 2:23:26.360 | 2:23:33.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | whole thing is on for 24 hours and you take it off and you don't touch the leg. Again, | 2:23:33.720 | 2:23:37.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | this is really important because what we're not looking for is a set of micromanagement, | 2:23:37.760 | 2:23:41.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | uh, you know, printing or controlling the cells we want to trigger. We want to, we want | 2:23:41.280 | 2:23:45.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to interact with it early on and then not touch it again because, because we don't know | 2:23:45.600 | 2:23:49.260 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | how to make a frog leg, but the frog knows how to make a frog leg. So 24 hours, 18 months | 2:23:49.260 | 2:23:54.820 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of leg growth after that, without us touching it again. And after 18 months, you get a pretty | 2:23:54.820 | 2:23:58.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | good leg that kind of shows this proof of concept that early on when the cells right | 2:23:58.480 | 2:24:02.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | after injury, when they're first making a decision about what they're going to do, you | 2:24:02.720 | 2:24:05.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | can, you can impact them. And once they've decided to make a leg, they don't need you | 2:24:05.560 | 2:24:09.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | after that. They can do their own thing. So that's an approach that we're now taking. | 2:24:09.440 | 2:24:14.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | What about cancer suppression? That's something you mentioned earlier. How can all of these | 2:24:14.040 | 2:24:18.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | ideas help with cancer suppression? | 2:24:18.480 | 2:24:20.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | So let's, let's go back to the beginning and ask what, what, what, what cancer is. So I | 2:24:20.360 | 2:24:23.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | think, um, you know, asking why there's cancer is the wrong question. I think the right question | 2:24:23.600 | 2:24:28.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is why is there ever anything but cancer? So, so in the normal state, you have a bunch | 2:24:28.520 | 2:24:33.420 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of cells that are all cooperating towards a large scale goal. If that process of cooperation | 2:24:33.420 | 2:24:38.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | breaks down and you've got a cell that is isolated from that electrical network that | 2:24:38.680 | 2:24:42.780 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | lets you remember what the big goal is, you revert back to your unicellular lifestyle | 2:24:42.780 | 2:24:47.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | as far as, now think about that border between self and world, right? Normally when all these | 2:24:47.280 | 2:24:51.020 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | cells are connected by gap junctions into an electrical network, they are all one self, | 2:24:51.020 | 2:24:56.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | right? That meaning that, um, their goals, they have these large tissue level goals and | 2:24:56.360 | 2:25:01.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | so on. As soon as a cell is disconnected from that, the self is tiny, right? And so at that | 2:25:01.600 | 2:25:06.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | point, and so, so people, a lot of people model cancer cell cells as being more selfish | 2:25:06.760 | 2:25:11.580 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and all that. They're not more selfish. They're equally selfish. It's just that their self | 2:25:11.580 | 2:25:14.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is smaller. Normally the self is huge. Now they got tiny little selves. Now what are | 2:25:14.280 | 2:25:18.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the goals of tiny little selves? Well, proliferate, right? And migrate to wherever life is good. | 2:25:18.040 | 2:25:22.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And that's metastasis. That's proliferation and metastasis. So, so one thing we found | 2:25:22.680 | 2:25:26.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and people have noticed years ago that when cells convert to cancer, the first thing they | 2:25:26.640 | 2:25:31.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | see is they close the gap junctions. And it's a lot like, I think it's a lot like that experiment | 2:25:31.960 | 2:25:36.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | with the slime mold where until you close that gap junction, you can't even entertain | 2:25:36.800 | 2:25:41.440 |
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